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Adjustment discussion

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Eckles, Feb 16, 2020.

  1. Eckles

    Eckles Senior Administrator Game Administrator Skrell Species Maintainer


    So I'm using this topic to look for opinions facts ideas, input etc. Any big changes aside, how do people feel about the following:

    1. Removing fleet.
    2. Making it EC + Contractors only.
    3. Cutting down a looooot of the remaining "milRP" stuff to the bare bits, mostly just adhering to your superiors/bosses/the law.
    4. Any ideas for shadying up the torch people may have to establish it as being possibly mildly less reputable to make hiring of not-good people more feasible.
    5. Rejigging the Torch being "exploring unknown deep space" to exploring the badly damaged/abandoned frontier/sections of human space long since abandoned due to gateway collapse/etc to make the finding of random human away sites make more sense.
    6. Any other stuff people may think would be a better way to go at this.

    Nothing is set in stone, I'm using this to gather peoples input and opinions.

    Please refrain from any "do not change this because x is my fav thing" comments, I'm looking for real, actual feedback here on how we can move forward.

    Thank you in advance.
  2. I personally don't participate in a lot of the milRP stuff because I found it intimidating. Removing the more rigid fleet might make make it a little more accessible, but I can see how the players who enjoy the heavy milRP might object.

    #5 makes way more sense, I approve heartily
  3. Honestly, at the state were in, it'd probably be easier to just get a new map, as some people will get pissed and major conflicts would occur 1-3 happens. 5 is pretty good and should happen right away. 4, in my opinion, is more of a player-based thing than a development/gameplay thing
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2020
  4. BunkyBunky

    BunkyBunky Permanently Banned User

    I really enjoy MilRP and I tend to scramble for it whenever/wherever I can and sometimes it doesn't really suit my taste, CM for example; would be an amazing setting that I'd love to experience nonstop, the premise of being on a Defense Force space vessel fighting off unknown threats while adhering to half-assed laws and screaming SIR at every opportunity sounds great to me however I can't get that when playing CM for obvious reasons.
    I don't have a real good answer for points 1 through 3 but I'd hate to see the Fleet go, so I've come up with a horrible solution that won't work:
    Like Tennessee said - having two maps.
    You have the SEV Torch, lax space exploration operations with very little MilRP, EC and Civ.
    But you could also have the SFV Maelstrom, a Somme - Class Frigate tasked with surveying and laying mines between the Uuoea-Esa and Lordania systems in order to prevent Vox vessels from slipping between them, they're connected to a supply line and are in constant Communication with the SFV Tomoe Gozen and by proxy the Warspite, this means they are in the Third Fleets Special Group Alpha.
    They posses a basic FTL drive, one that can get them between several systems around the area in which they are deployed and to power this and much more of the vessel, they posses multiple nuclear-powered turbines that have a great commercial appeal despite their risks. Armed to the teeth with mines and missiles it's staffed with a large handful of crewman trained in loading, operating and firing the armaments the vessel has available, all of which are under the command of an O-5 Commanding Officer.

    I personally think that having a second map could provide different gameplay opportunities while keeping the MilRP separate from the Torch, spriting, coding and mapping an entire new map just to get MilRP off the Torch is a stretch, but I think it'll make everyone a lot more happy than if the Fleet was just yoinked from the Torch and if it ever comes to something like that at all, I'd be happy to lend a hand with anything.

    I don't really have an answer for the other points.
  5. Imienny

    Imienny Laser Tag 2019 Participant

    1-3. HRP milRP makes Bay unique compared to other servers, a lot of players says its one of biggest advantage of bay,
    probably instead of removing it we should add more contractor roles so people who dont like milRP can avoid it.
    5. definetely yes.
    6. maybe replace torch with two smaller ships? one with milRP one without, ideally, ones which wouldnt be friendly to each other, to create conflict between them
  6. Norodo

    Norodo Bartender

    Adhering to your bosses and the law isn't "milRP" at all, that's just RP. At that point you might as well just remove any and all ranks and discipline and go back to having heads of staff. To be fair, this is a workable template, as seen on Goon, /tg/, /vg/ and earlier Bay, along with probably a dozen other SS13 servers. I do feel like it'd cut some of the charm from BS12. I feel like if you're going to cut "milRP", you'd better cut it completely.
    flying_loulou and Rowtree like this.
  7. SilverSZ

    SilverSZ Chef

    I've never played a fleet character on bay so I'll refrain from commenting on 1-3
    4: Would be neat but idk how you could do it other than just making it out that the torch has laxer hiring if it continues to be a government vessel
    5: I don't think this would really change much at all in terms of the RP or Setting, it's something abit darker and It makes more sense but finding human away sites was never really something that broke my immersion, I always just saw it as while the Torch visited officially unexplored areas who knows what was out there before, It'd make some stuff make less sense too then like the Unishi and Bearcat if they are meant to be truly abandoned
    6:I don't really have any ideas to propose that would be relevant to direction these changes really want to go, I think they're fine for setting up a Torch without Milrp and allowing for a wider range of characters and a slight setting change if that's what people want
  8. tomdroid

    tomdroid Game Radmin Game Administrator

    1-2. While I've never played fleet, I know many people who do, and I think axing it wouldn't really serve to do anything but alienate them.
    3-4. This is a reaaaaally drastic setting change, and I think that it would be better for just a whole new setting to put these ideas in, instead of awkwardly shoving them into the SEV Torch.
    5. No real negative opinions on this, this doesn't really change much and is already practically a thing.

    6. I've expressed this before in the meeting we had yesterday, but I think a DS9 style station would do exactly what we want. Make it EC administrated, but at the fringes of human space, meaning that the majority of characters aren't going to be EC goodboys, but civvies hired without real concerns to background because they have to take what they get. So, we could have shady business going on in this far-off station, smuggling, illegal goods, etc, but at the same time, we wouldn't throw away the people who like EC/fleet. Maybe have some ships docked to it at round start, so fleetie boys can fleet about.
    Subosovitch and SgtManGuy like this.
  9. Vulcenus

    Vulcenus Bartender

    I don't see how any of the options presented above are changing, except maybe bringing in shady characters mentioned in the 4th option. People act/think as if Military RP currently present on SEV Torch is actually bothering/effecting anyone or actually has a foothold on the server, which is nonsense.

    Nobody actually gives a damn who's saluting whom, especially if you're not a Fleet personnel, and the Fleet itself isn't hindering anyone's gameplay, it's just there as an option. The Command staff is nearly always a mix of Expeditionary Corps and Fleet personnel, and when when/if it isn't, the difference is barely noticeable at best, since it doesn't effect anything at all in case of gameplay or in-round situations.

    What Baystation needs is a palpable change, rather than making changes on the game lobby text, such as changing "exploring deep space" to "not so deep space" as mentioned and suggested above. Palpable as in gameplay changes, new away sites to explore, a new map (as mentioned and suggested by a couple users above). People (and myself) are just tired of the same old SEV Torch and what Baystation 12 currently have to offer.

    And when these kind of changes are mentioned, maybe the Staff, or some people on the Staff shouldn't just take an approach such as "why don't you code it yourself?" Just putting my two cents in, hopefully I contributed something of note to the discussion.
  10. This sums up a majority of my opinion regarding such in less flowery terms. In my complete, honest, one-sentence opinion, a lore overhaul (sorta rewrite the entire lore) would need to happen first, and from there a gameplay overhaul (which follows the lore) would be needed if people want to move 'forward' with BS12.
  11. Subosovitch

    Subosovitch Bartender

    Please no. I dont play Fleet much but I'd miss having the option and slight spin on things.
    I know you said you dont want "dont because its favorite" but this is pretty much subjective as it gets. I like the fleet presence, I like the spin of it, I like a lot of concepts and situations that came from it.

    Same as above, I however also feel like contractor freedome makes for boring concepts overall.
    Aka. how it is for EC/Contractors already? Also refer to 1. 2.

    The existance of contractors, the need to find funding and the nature of deep space (which isnt exactly displayed much aside 'dont take escape pods cuz we dead haha') could do that if fleshed out. Goverments are not inherently good or foolproof, its simply how the overall setting was handled that does not lend itself much.
    There are a ton of reason why upstanding people do bad shit too.

    Okay, yea. Sounds like my headcanon of what the Torch is actually doing based on my inital joining about 8 months ago

    Axing things that add a good variation to things isnt good, rather refine the things we have.
    Yes I know thats the meme of "fix dont remove" but since a few months thats all I am seeing. Poorly rushed implementation or 1-person-strong-heading something in and then letting it grow stale like the things that were around before. Without pointing fingers, I dont care for the individuals and the individual reasoning for how things came to be but thats the largest "issue" i can think off in relation to the earlier points.
    flying_loulou likes this.
  12. Rodmuth

    Rodmuth Game Moderator

    The way I see it, the last time we had big changes, it created a lot of drama, lasting for over a year. This resulted in a loss of players and it was overall messy and unfun.
    Then, several times after that, big changes (instead of developing what we have) have been suggested several times, and every time it was rejected by the community. It was rejected stronger and stronger each time, the more people have finally settled in to our unique experience here, and as those who quit over the last big change stopped coming around not to play but to complain which they did for a long time.

    So first of all I'd like to know why big changes are now even suggested again?

    I'll be back to write more once I have got this crucial clarification, for now I would just like to say that when Vulcenus wrote, "People act/think as if Military RP currently present on SEV Torch is actually bothering/effecting anyone or actually has a foothold on the server, which is nonsense." he is 100% right. The only issue is that the wiki still acts like MilRP of new Torch is a thing, when in reality it isn't. The community itself has adjusted to where it wants to be in terms of this.
  13. mikomyazaki2

    mikomyazaki2 Petty Officer First Class

    If you nix the Fleet side of things, maybe you can introduce some shadiness with inter-corporation fighting amongst EXO? Disagreements on what the Torch should be doing, and how it should be doing it.

    As someone that has many half-baked and half-finished away-site ideas/projects sitting on their computer... I think 5 is absolutely necessary for the future of the server if you want to keep the (currently fairly stagnant) Exploration focus. And for creating off-ship roles. We already essentially have this going on with the Verne, Bearcat, Merchant, various antagonists etc -- It's just not "lore supported".

    • We don't have the assets to make alien away sites easily.
    • Most/all alien species that have been added are far from equiv-tech, and this has severely limited interaction between them and the Torch.

    Making the Torch able to find equiv-tech forgotten human settlements / small civilizations would make creating new away sites, events, etc. so much easier.

    In my opinion the nature of antagonists needs to change from the SS13 typical style.

    • Add Torch mission objectives that spawn depending on the round type, what away maps spawn, population in departments and maybe the CO/SCGR's wishes.
    • Alter antagonist rules and types so that it is more "Antagonists vs. the Mission" rather than "Antagonists vs. the Crew". This will probably make the antagonist game mechanic a bit less combat-y and more PvE / investigation mechanics.
    • Track round objective completion over many rounds (past weeks?) and display it somewhere, see if you can make players care a little about the round going well. And see if you can make all departments contribute.
    • See if you can make events which fit this theme of the Torch completing special exploration missions with player-actors and stuff.
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2020
  14. Atebite

    Atebite Bartender

    god knows how many times I've said this across god knows how many failed communities. I'm gonna be real with you:

    nobody except for a very tiny (< ~5) hardcore fanbase will keep playing on your server for the rp. if your game isn't mechanically fun/engaging, it will die because it's boring. mechanics also need to evolve (via content updates) because stale/old content is boring content, especially in a game like ss13 where people like to optimize. this is exactly what's happening to bay. it's the stalest ss13 fork by far and it has been for several months.

    (as a side note: many people seem to think that "better lore" will save their server. this is not true. in my experience communities usually die a few months after people start saying this)

    the last time I tried contributing, I was met with a very vocal group of people who strongly opposed the change because they were afraid it'd ruin rp by introducing combat-related mechanics. even after I adapted the change to be less combat-oriented, people were afraid of the feature because there was code which could potentially be used to make combat stuff in later PRs, even if the PR didn't introduce new combat mechanics to the game. that was like half a year ago now, and I hop on every now and then to check the changelog. there's still nothing in there that makes me think you guys aren't strangling the server to death by opposing new features over rp concerns. I haven't been following the general discussion, though, so sue me if I'm wrong.

    case in point:

    you're a hrp server, but stop caring too much about the rp. you're overthinking it. give new, seemingly wild content a chance. if you need the game mechanics to cater to your rp instead of rping with what the game has to offer you, I think you're a shitty roleplayer. go rp in a chat room instead.
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2020
    Cakey, Faustico, Don_Piano and 3 others like this.
  15. antonkr

    antonkr Sol Gov Pilot

    I dislike all of these options.

    Here is an idea bring back NT to it's former glory and kick the stoopid government out of science!

    On a more serious note Id much prefer a setting change to come with an entirely new map.
  16. Faustico

    Faustico Petty Officer First Class

    In all seriousness, this is what I would prefer to happen.
    NT being a majority stakeholder in the Torch and having control of the research department was a really interesting facet of the Torch. It allowed "shady" characters to have a proper place on the ship, generated interesting situations where command would have to consider less-than-perfectly-ethical actions, and it was a nice counterbalance to the fleet's "star-trek lite" mentality.

    I think having both fleet and EC is just redundant, so I'm in favor of removing one of them and I don't have a preference on which.

    As stated above, try returning research to NT control with some stricter guidelines to prevent some of the issues that caused it to be removed in the first place.

    Absolutely, 100%, in favor of this.
  17. Karbivio

    Karbivio Ascent Species Maintainer

    I haven't been able to play at all with how busy life has been, but this would change immediately if rounds were just 2 hours long instead of 3. The lore and everything doesn't impede my willingness to play, outside of extremely restrictive things like alien species only being able to be civvies like in the beginning of Torch; it's just the simple time investment required to get a full round in.

    Cryo-ing feels like ending a story early. Playing from beginning to end has finality to it. It sounds pedantic, but it's important to me.
    Eckles likes this.
  18. Za_Redman

    Za_Redman Donator

    If it's not removed from the lore, I would begrudgingly be OK with this - And that's only due to my own personal 'fleet supreme' bias.
    It really already seems to operate that way. Fleet's not as strict as it used to be. I don't think there would be a real loss if Fleet is axed.
    Imho ranks have gummed up things. You used to have it so characters could jump from Warden to COS without issue. Now for that to happen, they need a handwavy rank change which can also fuck with relationships/how other friendly characters interact with them. I wouldn't be opposed to this, but if rank structure goes then why even keep EC?
    Could have it be where EC funds the operation but contracts the actual work to the lowest bidder. You see that done already with a number of government ventures (eg: passenger railroads) where GOV'T provides funds and some oversight, CORP figures out day-to-day operations and hires sketchy sketches.
    At this point, I also wouldn't mind seeing a change in map - But that's the more time-intensive and borderline nuclear option. Been milling around ideas with others of something like those off-shore oil rigs where they float around, fix in a central point, and operations can be conducted from that central platform.
  19. Deadmon_Wonderland

    Deadmon_Wonderland Game Administrator Unathi Species Maintainer Laser Tag 2019 Participant

    I don't think there's even a ton of MilRP with fleet, so why bother to remove it? A few dudes who joined fleet rather than EC aren't going to completely destroy the suspension of disbelief. All fleet really does add in the end is a bit more flavor for characters and such.

    Shady business can literally just be explained by saying that the EC isn't extraordinarily funded and like most government entities is funded entirely with half the budget it actually needs.

    Ranks can also be used in character development. I mean I don't necessarily see the issue with ranks fucking with relationships because promotions and changes in standing can affect people in negative/positive ways.
  20. antonkr

    antonkr Sol Gov Pilot

    Torch has been absolutely plagued by one compromise over another.

    NT science going from a contested controversial thing to somewhat oppose the government to being an intensely boring "another department" with pretty much zero gameplay and a lot less roleplay.

    MilRP going from a definitive part of the setting to being so optional that it outright doesn't happen.

    Contractors being there for specific tasks in departments that would otherwise be dominated by government/military workers.

    All of this just makes for this dilute boring setting that imho doesn't quite work and I think that civilian Torch might actually be better at this point.
    EmGee, SparklySheep and Za_Redman like this.