Discussion in 'Announcements' started by Virgil, Jul 30, 2018.
The fact that he is actually playing? Yeah. that does make his opinion matter a little more than yours. The game should most definitely not cater to people who left because their frilled out reject character doesn't have any redeeming quality to get them hired onto the Torch even as a contractor.
to quote you:
Except now you rejoice when the decision is arbitrarily made to remove it. AND THEN get pissed off when it's stopped and decided it's better off to rethinkd actually come up with a proposal, because people didn't like how it was handled.
I've already stated the direction I personally think we should go. I don't want to remove anything. In fact, I want to keep the Torch and all of its military glory for those that enjoy it. There should just be other aspects for those such as myself. I'm simply calling out people when they're being entirely unreasonable, because someone really should. Unlike some, I'm not being selfish. There is no battle to be found here, my friend. Look elsewhere.
This thread isn't going to be locked, so anyone who cannot participate in a reasonable discussion like an adult will be removed.
Seems like we have returned to the classic "Let's judge other people's characters."
Here's a fun fact:
Have you ever heard of xenos?
Maybe because people who played them got wholly disenfranchised and relegated to Research. At the start, Contractor roles were also fluffed up assistant roles, forcing the department heads (the SNCO and the officer) to constantly hand out guest passes. Oh, and contractor roles were also often shat on both OOC and ICly, often unjustifiably, simply because it was played by a "snowflek xeno", who was told to "lololol go erp elsewhere furfag."
I've seen the above glorious statements voiced in the amazing channel known as DSAY and LOOC. While trying to play a tolerant SNCO.
I get that you haven't played in a while Runa, but there is no need to be silly.
There are plenty of people who still play xenos, and currently they have plenty of jobs open to them.
Uh, regardless of anything else, this hasn't been the case for at least....A year now. Just want to clarify, alien chars are somewhat fairly regular as a thing, and can play every role now bar heads of staff and...Three others.
So, if nothing else, this isn't the case, at all, and hasn't been for some time. Just throwing that out there.
Funnily enough if we're talking about opinions that matter more than X you'd think a donators opinion matters much more because they literally put their money down. But there is literally no point arguing whose opinion matters more because that's a stupid argument.
I didn't know we have playerbase of 15 people. Wow.
For RP reason's that's good. it means you can't just have one character be like 5 different things (even in the same department), which is good.
Where earlier I would've randomly cobbled together a background that was ecleptic and wide-reaching, now I am encouraged to write several characters with backgrounds that actually make sense for their position.
a Officer in charge of Security isn't going to have the same background as a Master at Arms. He's just not. One's an officer trained to lead a department the other's an NCO trained to deal with the nitty-gritty of law enforcement.
What Alex is saying is that it would be a bad idea (and just stupid) to throw away milrp, which large swathes of the current playerbase (that is, people who are already in the server, people who actually play the game, and people who are likely to continue playing. These are people who can be quantified.) to appease and attempt to "win back" people who say that they "would come back" if milrp were to be removed (that is: People who have already proven themselves to be fair-weather players, who have already proven themselves to be easily run off, people who are just as likely to come back for a week or month or so and then run off to another station the moment something they don't like happens.).
Seems like quite the strawman since quite a few of the players you are talking about played for years before the Torch hit, and played quite a bit. I mean on my end I played on Bay practically 24/7. Can't say there is a real alternative to BS12 either so not sure what other station people would run off to besides Vore maybe.
People who leave, and continue to refuse to come back because "muh milrp" after everything that's been done to make it clear that there are non-milrp options on the torch, or because "muh xenos" after they've been given access to most of the available spots on the torch, have earned the title "fair weather players" and should have absolutely no say in whether or not it continues to have milrp. Concessions, especially in removing a major part of what draws a decent chunk of players to bay (milrp in a calm, non-gung-ho environment) should not be made at the expense of existing players to appease people who quit playing and refuse to return (again, even after concessions have been made to them already)
This paints a picture of "EW MILRP BAD AAAAAA" in anyone who's left the server, which isn't very fair. People don't leave in a huff at a percieved sleight, especially not when they've been playing Bay every day for years. They've tried to make things work in the Torch. I can't speak for everyone, but for myself personally, I've actually come back to bay as an intermittent player; it's my option when I don't really feel like RPing too hard, or my main servers are dead population hours. But it's a pretty big fuckin' issue when Bay is the "I don't want to RP too hard" server. Wasn't that the entire point of the server?
I've tried to play Fleeties, contractors, and EC, but it's just not nearly as fun in the environment of the Torch, and there's been a very, very notable dip in quality in terms of how the RP and gameplay actually is. Subjective, I know, but I know a lot of people share my sentiment. And I blame the dip in quality on milRP and the general atmosphere of the Torch. On no other RP server is it kosher to bust out the KILL THEM HARDER armory, set phasers to kill, and hand out guns and armor to anybody who asks for it to hunt down that fuckin' antag as anything other than a last minute desperation act. Here, it's the standard.
Except it's not kosher. At all. Hence part of the reason for the switch to smartguns. If people are treating it as kosher (which I've only seen it being treated as kosher in Rev Rounds, where Command ARE THE ANTAGS)
In fact, I play an SEA who will tell superior officers off if they cross the line. And, quite frankly, I much prefer the RP on the torch, where you at least have to act like a human being of some sort, to the Exodus, where, while you still had to "rp realistically" you still had characters who would have a hard time keeping employment of spaceball one, much less anywhere else.
Exodus allowed people to play characters that are, to quote SAO Abridged, "less people than a loose collection of character defects."
If you play a commanding officer who cracks down on that shit, I thank you, really. But as someone who plays antag, the typical 'ending' has been ten chucklefucks in baby blue e-arm armor with carbines teleporting into a hostage situation and gunning everyone down, like they're enemies in a wave based combat mode. It's so common I expect it.
See my quote. Calling them 'fair weather players' would be like calling me a 'fair weather boater' because I don't want to go water skiing in a hurricane.
I'd bet dollars to doughnuts the issue was largely lessl about military and more the fact that people who wanted to play xenos the way they had before arbitrarily no longer could. Considering the EC xeno thing has been walked back, there was literally no reason they couldn't have just not alienated people in the first place. Instead those people were told 'here's a straw so you can suck it up'. Their only roles were science, a handful (2x engineering, 2x medical, bartender, librarian) of contractor roles (with severely limited access), and no sec, all of which they had to share with people who didn't want to play EC. Being one of the latter, the best prospect to play my skilled engineering character was to pick 'maintenance assistant' (there was no 'engineering contractor' alt title) and had no access to EVA, Atmo, the ship exterior or even some of engineering's own tool vendors, and be told 'it's just like playing regular engineering!'. Really, fuck off with that noise. If I need to hack half the crap in my own department to just follow my co-workers through a doorway, I guarantee you it is certainly not the same.
People want to make it about us disliking milrp but it's not, for me; it's that the staff at the time thought this token booby prize was an acceptable solution for the few that didn't conform to this idea rather than literally making all (or even most) things equal, especially when it's reason was only for the sake of preserving the military environment/lore.
That's an ENORMOUS issue.
Even @Finalsong, who was a massive proponent at the time, and @Meyar, who was staff helping to push it through, cite in their hindsight that these concerns were steamrolled and ignored and the people behind them mocked, despite many of their concerns being realized months later. And I don't think those players who would still voice their concern on discord or the forums (and some banned) even care about milrp nearly as much as they do about the staff realising 'We fucked up' and being certain staff won't do the same thing again, even right now.
I don't play because every time I go to, I'm not sure of that and I can't stand that feeling. So I just bring it up on the forums repeatedly in hopes the message gets through so we don't have to have players go through that again.
See, what those of us that joined after the Exodus dislike about the forum-dwelling crowd is the circlejerk of hating random non-problem aspects of the Torch that it appears to be stuck in. As you say above, the specific issues weren't even the problem for you, it was how they were handled, the interpersonal conflicts involved, and just sour memories of the time.
But time has passed, and the world turned. The staff has been largely replaced, the Torch is very different now and changes at a decent pace, and the old complaints just don't seem to hold water to us. We play on the Torch and enjoy it, so it's hard to reconcile the attitudes (your attitude is based on something that you had to be there to experience, and no longer exists, so we can't actually experience it).
When we say things like "disregard the forum-dwellers" it's for this reason. We feel that if you actually made a legitimate, good-faith effort to find a place for yourself on the Torch, disregarding the history, you would like it too. But you can't get over that history, so there just isn't hope of you coming back regardless of what about the Torch is altered. And the things you point out as wanting changed strike us as proxies for some deeper, fundamental grievance that we can't ever address.
I'm not trying to insult anyone here: you probably have very good reasons to harbor the feelings you do. Just explaining how it feels on the flip side.
In any case, this turn of the conversation is hardly relevant to the subject matter at hand.
Again, my concern is not if staff has changed; it's if the sentiment from staff has changed. So I want to be sure that the next big thing won't be this massive dick to a decent number of players that the Torch had been to us. Regardless of staff being new or not, I'll expect similar results as before from similar attitudes.
For me, this is absolutely true. I've played on Torch. Hell, I've played CO and had some amazing (and less than amazing) rounds as that CO. It was a wonderful experience, but there are times the thought of all this past literally distresses me to the point where I cannot bring myself to connect to the server, sometimes for large swaths of time. You may see that as 'get over yourself', but very much it's still a case of 'once bitten, twice shy' even now. You find me here because this is primarily the only thing I can stomach.
Speaking for myself and not others, I don't look at anyone but staff to address these issues, because I know that you cannot. I speak to the players on the forum to share what my experience was, to warn, to prevent anything similar as best I can. It's not about 'it's not that bad anymore' to me; it's about 'it can get that bad because it was that bad, here's how bad it was in my experience, I don't want this to happen to myself or anyone else again.'.
Seeing things like the walk backs, or the staff fumbling over issues myself and other players similarly affected had warned about does lend itself a sense of schadenfreude and smug vindication, but more than that, it's a statement of 'please listen, because we have concerns and we want to have fun playing here, too.'
I disagree, because if you consider that my want is for staff to not take rash action and stand behind it as a good idea as it actively dicks over players, as this proposal seems ready to do, then you surely must consider this to be poignant and direct warning against the mistakes of the past, as this rapidly appearing to become.
I mean I tried a while back, a couple of times actually. It wasn't fun, just not my cup of tea to be honest. I mean I literally enjoyed Vore station more than current bay, because at least everyone there is super chill, you can ignore the vore/erp ez pz. And you can do retarded shit while being in full RP. Like holodeck death matches and inter-department warfare.
I don't hate MilRP, I just don't care for it. I think it's a bit cringy if anything. I do however hate how the Torch launch was handled, it was done with the grace of a drunk truck driver on a rainy day.
See after that clusterfuck I am quite wary of rash actions on the part of staff, even if they are actions I would enjoy. This whole thing with going indie torch seems like a rash action if anything else. It only feels even more rash because staff didn't even show us a plan, new lore or anything. It feels like they decided hey lets go indie, sure. Post.
I like the idea, but this seems way too rash and poorly thought out. Announcement is too soon and done in a way that well... results in more infighting in the thread. I'm still not totally convinced that this isn't a joke on their part. Because announcing this seems to do literally nothing but spark anger.
I mean, that was them being nice. Example from "Funny, Embarassing, and WOWIE ZOWIE Moments: X." thread.
Ah good old times. When staff shitposted to aggravate a portion of the community for no good reason. Granted its snapshot.
But hey on the bright side I was 100% right and xenos were returned.
You might be surprised to learn little has changed despite changes in names and faces.
Separate names with a comma.