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Discussion in 'Policy Discussion' started by ThatOneGuy, Nov 29, 2017.


Should we do this with complaints?

  1. Yes TOG

    65 vote(s)
  2. No TOG

    5 vote(s)
  1. ThatOneGuy

    ThatOneGuy Retired Staff

    I realize now that making complaints private wasn't a great decision, so I'm working to change that.

    How they should work in my opinion:

    Complaints should be fully visible especially admin ones.
    As we used to, you're not allowed to post in them. We'll use the forum settings to set that up but allow for people to post threads and reply in their own threads. Evidence can be PMd to the investigating admin.

    Sound good?

    Gonna keep the poll up for 48 hours after that I'm moving with whatever Option is chosen
  2. mkalash

    mkalash Donator

    1. As one of the admins who handles the most player complaints, private complaints -- for many reasons -- are much easier to handle, in my opinion
    2. "Somebody needs to watch the admins to make sure they're not corrupt" is a silly thing and the complainant can be the "watchdog," anyway
    3. It is much easier to convince players who are reluctant to report issues to make that complaint with them knowing that their "whining" isn't broadcasted to the world
    4. If people want drama, they can watch soap operas
    EDIT: Additionally, we have hard policy in place for making this sort of change, which the original proposal followed in full and this one follows not at all.
  3. Lonefly

    Lonefly Donator

    1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000% for this.

    Do it.
  4. SparklySheep

    SparklySheep Retired Staff

    The only reason people knew that there was a valid issue and that procedure wasn't being followed was that I, a non-staff member, was able to keep an eye on it. That by itself makes me pretty confident in dismissing your assumption here.

    To make myself a bit more clear, you're assuring everyone that there's no corruption going on, but are adamant on keeping the one way of assuring everyone that there actually is no corruption going on. Again, not a great way to inspire confidence.
  5. mkalash

    mkalash Donator

    Can you please explain what you are talking about with this point? I don't know what you're referring to.
    Do you have a reason to believe my reasoning to keep them private is something other than the reasons I did provide?
  6. Meyar

    Meyar Retired Worstmin 2015-2017

    That's not what we used to have. We didn't allow peanut gallery but allowed people to post evidence. Just a quick correction.
  7. ThatOneGuy

    ThatOneGuy Retired Staff

    I don't think we should even worry about whether it causes corruption, this is what a lot of people are asking for and going against the grain is eh here, even if "staff know best."
    Plus I think not giving posting privledges besides in your thread is better, and people will know when they have a complaint against them and not be worried all the time.

    Also yes, sorry meyar
  8. mkalash

    mkalash Donator

    That doesn't seem to be a good reason to ignore the points I am making against this revert, tog.
  9. ThatOneGuy

    ThatOneGuy Retired Staff

    It's not that I'm ignoring them I just do not agree with them, also I didn't write out a full response explaining why sorry
  10. Meyar

    Meyar Retired Worstmin 2015-2017

    I'm going to stay neutral on 'player complaints should 100% be public' as I'm retired, but I will say that preventing people from posting their side or their evidence while having the thread public is a half measure that makes it worse than both of the other options.

    In the current system, people aren't given a trial in the public eye. Administrators are supposed to get the complaint, talk to the defendant, talk it over, gather evidence, and handle it like one would an ahelp.

    In the old system, it was a public trial, but the defendant could actually defend themselves, and not just have an accusation publicly thrown at them with no way to defend themselves in the public.

    The intent of the change was to give players some measure of privacy, so their peers weren't sneering and jeering at them in a public court of opinion. Whether the change is working as intended I'm, as I said, leaving that to current staff as I'm no longer involved in that process. But at least pick one or the other, a compromise in this case is just worse for everyone.
  11. mkalash

    mkalash Donator

    No offense, but I think that given we probably will not be able to dig up the last player complaint you handled, not especially one from under the private complaint policy, how can you tell me that you know what working with the new policy is like?
  12. Meyar

    Meyar Retired Worstmin 2015-2017

    It's not arcane voo-doo. It's the forum equivalent of an Ahelp.
  13. The Great Skeeve

    The Great Skeeve Sol Gov Pilot

    Too bad privacy is thrown out the window anyways when one of the parties inevitably tells all his friends about the result, with skewed views to whether they were successful or unsuccessful - creating further divide in the community because instead of getting both sides, some players only get one. (It's probably not a huge problem but it has happened already.)
  14. StrategicImportance

    StrategicImportance Senior Enlisted Advisor

    A complaint displayed publicly encourages those with evidence to add to it to actually come forward and present it. It's way less effort to walk to an existing complaint and add your bit than to fill out the entire form, as you need to if you are not aware that there is a complaint in place already.

    Additionally, some may consider their encounters with the reported person to be not amounting for a full written out complaint but worthy of being added to someone else's. By hiding the complaints from these people the potential evidence is being missed out on as well.

    Also, please don't use "go get your drama somewhere else" as a reason to hide any controversial topics. Presuming that intent arbitrarily is just low.
  15. mkalash

    mkalash Donator

    Which function very well as completely private affairs.
    Again, as a staff member who handles a lot of these player complaints, it is actually easier for me to seek out these perspectives myself. I don't need to sift through a hundred "me too" posts, mixed in with peanut gallery, to find useful information.
    This never happens. Players usually tell others involved that they are making a complaint. Any crossed wires are easily cleared up, if the small chance of it happening does occur.
    Which is why private complaints are great, because I have been able to downplay the "big deal"-ness of complaints and encourage people to post them without fear of hoopla.
    "Potential evidence" is not a good concept. The only thing relevant is your perspective on events that involved you. Anything hard comes from the server logs.
    It was not an assumption. Too many have explicitly told me that they just enjoy the drama.

    I'm not trying to "hide" anything. I'm trying to keep a system that works great from reverting to a less functional state. Many reasons people give against private complaints are misguided and not actually important or true. Complaints are a tool for admins to extend their enforcement beyond their ability to be on the server. They are not a public call-out opportunity for players. When the want for the latter is given priority over the need for the former, we are making a poor decision.
  16. ThatOneGuy

    ThatOneGuy Retired Staff

    Off topic but I try to avoid handling them because I don't think people rlly want the Headmin handling it.

    I still think this is a better option than what we have currently. Defendants (wow) if necessary can be given a temp tag to post in the thread but that sounds complicated. Submit your evidence and whatnot to the admin, or tell them why the complaint is wrong if that tag idea is too much
  17. Meyar

    Meyar Retired Worstmin 2015-2017

    Yeah sorry, defendants is just what came to mind. Wasn't trying to sound overly dramatic or serious I swear.

    But yeah I just have to reiterate my earlier point. If you're gonna keep them private, keep them private. If you're gonna make them public, for the love of god just do a full revert instead of half-waying it. Manually applying tags (if that's even possible for an admin to do) is just way too complicated and leaving a player in the spotlight unable to defend themselves it's just kinda cruel. This is not an issue to compromise on, it'll just lead to more frustration and bad feelings. :(
  18. StrategicImportance

    StrategicImportance Senior Enlisted Advisor

    I'm going to ignore the bits about how this affects your job. The actually debatable bits:
    Only the Sith deal in absolutes. Oh yeah, and if someone has experience from separate rounds that I don't know of but is worthy of consideration I don't expect the handling admin to go through random rounds and pull it up. Which is where the other players come in.

    From my own experience:

    You can see two people who I have not summoned to the thread add their own experiences with the person that they had on separate rounds.

    Either way, if you like private complains so much and they make your job easier, why not say "Hey, the complaints are public but if you are too shy/afraid/whatever just message @mkalash instead". Best of both worlds, no?

    Also, what Meyar said. As it has already been pointed out by @Earthcrusher the only good reason to prevent people from posting in complaints is unwillingness to moderate those and we all know the forums aren't lacking in this department.
  19. ThatOneGuy

    ThatOneGuy Retired Staff

    I'd be fine with making them 100% public rather than this but if it doesn't work out well we'd switch back to private.
  20. StrategicImportance

    StrategicImportance Senior Enlisted Advisor

    Out of curiosity, what's the criteria for working out well?