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[FEEDBACK] Upcoming medical changes.

Discussion in 'Suggestions & Feedback' started by Loaf, Jan 24, 2017.

  1. Loaf

    Loaf Retired Staff

    Someday I'll work out a reliable way to check if a window is in the way of something. Someday.
     
  2. Ithalan

    Ithalan Senior Enlisted Advisor

    I feel like arterial bleeding is perhaps just a bit too fast right now. We had multiple cases come in that were stasis bagged almost immediately after injury and then kept on chained-together blood IVs, yet were still dying on us during surgery except when we kept them pumped full of dex plus too, and rapidly exhausted the entire stock of O- bags. This was for a supremely well-prepared medbay too, significant stocks of medicine and multiple doctors who knew exactly what to do.

    This would be less of an issue if inaprovaline got updated to mitigate the effects of blood loss like it did in Haswell's attempt at overhauling medicine, but right now I think arterial bleeding might just end up horrible frustrating for the average medbay.
     
  3. Loaf

    Loaf Retired Staff

    Throw me some more details on what inapro did re: bloodloss? That might be a good intermediary change between making arterial bleeding even slower (unrealistically so) and keeping it rapidly lethal.
     
  4. Ithalan

    Ithalan Senior Enlisted Advisor

    The way it worked in Haswell's version was that while the patient had any amount of inaprovaline (or one of the other medicines that he made give the same CE_ effect) in them, oxy loss (and tox loss in one later stage) from low blood level was decreased by a percentage, and the thresholds below which some stages of blood loss dealt most of their damage were also lowered by it so that the oxy loss plateaued earlier.

    Inaprovaline by itself wasn't terribly effective in Haswell's version, because the effect was shared with a stronger version of inaprovaline, plus the two varients of dexalin as well, and they all stacked. If it's gojng to be exclusive to inaprovaline, I'd say a 66-75% reduction (for 3x to 4x as much time until death compared to without) should probably be the minimum magnitude of the effect.
     
  5. Chinsky

    Chinsky Retired Staff

    Inapro applied multiplier to oxydamage dealt by effects of bloodloss.
    So usually you'd take 10 per tick, but with inapro in, it'd be 6 per tick, something like that.
    I also propsed that instead it'd buff effective blood levels, so you would last longer on less blood.

    Also - arterial bleeding goes with same speed in every organ right? If so I think it should scale so lost hand is less dangerous that severed throat
    EDIT: there's 'relative size' var in organs, might use that for scaling.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2017
  6. Botanist

    Botanist Permanently Banned User

    Sounds like Lifeweb which isn't a bad thing
     
    Mark9013100 likes this.
  7. Loaf

    Loaf Retired Staff

    New PR is up: here. Relatively small this time.
    - Moves blood regen and blood loss onto the heart/liver/brain.
    - Buffs inaprovaline when used to treat blood loss.
    - Ties your pulse rate into how fast you bleed. Inapro reduces BPM by one level, meaning that inaprovaline administered to someone bleeding out will apply two reductions.
    - Allows cauteries to be used surgically to stop stumps from bleeding from a cut artery. This means you can table someone and welder torch their throat as an emergency measure.
    - Stumps will keep the name of their original limb and show up on the body scanner if bleeding.
    - Bleeding rate now scales to the size of the organ (both for arterial bleeding and regular bleeding). Hands/feet are 50%, arms/legs are 75%.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2017
    Techhead, Asanadas and Albens like this.
  8. LorenLuke

    LorenLuke Commanding Officer

    At time of writing, bandaged wounds do not seem to heal. Not sure if related to this PR or not, but worth mentioning, methinks.
     
  9. Loaf

    Loaf Retired Staff

    PR got merged, please let me know about problems and thoughts.
     
  10. Loaf

    Loaf Retired Staff

    Next phase in progress:
    • Brainloss is now the only way, short of removal of a vital organ or limb, to kill a human.
    • Brain HP has been increased to the species maximum of the owner (ie. the previous value of 'max health')
    • Dionaea split/die if you remove enough of their limbs, since they don't have a brain.
    • Oxyloss is now a percentage modifier applied to effective blood volume when determining brain damage from oxygen deprivation. In other words, if you're suffocating, you count as being low on blood.
    • Blood loss now directly causes brain damage instead of oxyloss.
    • Toxloss is now general organ damage. Recieving toxloss (ie. from poison or radiation) will first attack the kidneys and liver, then randomly distribute amongst remaining organs, then attack the brain.
    • Dylovene now removes toxic reagents from the body and has a general toxin reduction effect for general-purpose toxin damage.
    • Toxins like cyanide and carpotoxin now target specific organs, bypassing the liver and kidneys, in order to cause far more lethal effects.
     
  11. Loaf

    Loaf Retired Staff

    This PR is sprawling out of control so might be awhile before it can be merged. Rewriting HUDs to report proper state information instead of a gamey health bar is going to take some time.
     
  12. Toybasher

    Toybasher Research Director

    Maybe. I saw a few torn aortas and lasted a few minutes. I dunno if where the artery is severed matters in the game currently, but IRL you'd never last a few minutes with a torn aorta. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traumatic_aortic_rupture You'd be dead before you hit the floor pretty much. We're talking YUUUUUGE amounts of blood loss from the biggest artery in the body, connected directly to the heart. You're NOT stopping that bleeding.

    If anything, artery bleeding should be faster. Give us tourniquets to apply to limbs.

    I think having certain types of injuries that are "Always fatal" and can't be treated no matter what (aside from MAYBE cryo) would be good.
     
  13. Chinsky

    Chinsky Retired Staff

    Gameplay considerations > realism. Yes IRL you can die from .22 lodged in a wrong place, but not really how game should work imo.
     
    IDTia, Loaf, Memescope McGee and 2 others like this.
  14. Soadreqm

    Soadreqm Research Director

    How do you tear your aorta, anyway? In the real world, it's usually because of massive blunt trauma to the chest, like a car accident or something, and that doesn't really happen in game. To directly hit the thing (eg. with a sword or a bullet), you basically have to stab your way through the entire torso.
    [​IMG]
     
  15. Chinsky

    Chinsky Retired Staff

    Jesus fucking Christ, one more fucking post about RL medicine things no one gives a flying fuck about and that are not relevant to the actual fucking game, and I'm going to be fucking upset.
    To answer the question - aorta sounds cooler than 'blood vessel squirts'. It's in the torso. It's a blood vessel. Can we now get back to the fucking gameplay considerations instead of showing off our WebMD diplomas.
     
    Kelenius, Loaf and Lonefly like this.
  16. LorenLuke

    LorenLuke Commanding Officer

    Bullets can go through people. Swords can too. Like... you answered your own question.
     
  17. Soadreqm

    Soadreqm Research Director

    They can, sure, but do they? Can bullets actually pass all the way through a mob? Does the attack also damage the correct internal organs on the way to the aorta? How many points of damage do you need to do to penetrate deep enough? These are important questions.
    I'm shocked, Chinsky. It's like you don't even care about the exact probability of a sword strike to the chest tearing a specific artery. ._.

    Thinking about it in terms of game design rather than medicine, though, I'm not sure if the game should be naming the specific internal injuries when they happen. Unless you're wearing a medihud or something. Dwarf fortress describes the combat in detail (although even Dwarf Fortress settles for "an artery in the upper body is torn"), but its medical system doesn't require the player to perform diagnosis. The dwarves do that on their own. It's a minor thing, with zero metagaming potential since all the possible blood vessels in the torso are in the same surgery area, but I think it'd be more thematic to describe the effects of the injuries rather than the causes.
     
  18. Loaf

    Loaf Retired Staff

    Then you can PR that level of pointless detail yourself. It's not relevant to the mechanical changes that this thread exists for discussing. Please stop derailing my thread.
     
    5crownik007 and Privateer like this.
  19. Loaf

    Loaf Retired Staff

    Trying to get some bugs/balancing shakedown done on the health rewrite, will be hosting it indefinitely at: byond://server.wetskrell.org:8010

    PR with details of changes is here: https://github.com/Baystation12/Baystation12/pull/16158#issuecomment-296446904

    Please post feedback if you jump on there, I'm working in the dark here and I want to get it to a place where both medical players and general players are okay with it before live testing.