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Let's encourage learning rather than punitive measures

Discussion in 'Policy Discussion' started by EstangaJr, Mar 30, 2018.

  1. EstangaJr

    EstangaJr Bartender

    I have made the observation, that under the current rules and admin procedures that many players receive bans until appeal. Not only that, but bans in general are handed out like candy. I know that my opinion on the matter may not be entirely unbiased, as a player of the server and recipient of a number of bans that were well deserved. However, it is my opinion that under these rules we reduce the number of players that could make productive members of our community. I, for one have received outright bans until appeal even before I was finished speaking to an admin, regardless of explaining exactly what I did wrong, what rule I broke, and what to do in the future. I understand that players need to understand the rules, but I do think that admins should have to acknowledge that the other party is finished making their points, and then process a ban if it is required at that time. But, before a ban and the conclusion of a ticket can proceed I do think that the following should be given to the accused. Exactly what they did wrong, what rule it violated, and what to do in the future. Barring creating too much of a hassle, it might even be prudent to remove the rule violation part, but at the very least they should be told what to do in the future. Most especially, this new procedure would enable new players from the hub, and just the normal trickle we get to remain here, without bans until appeal. Furthermore, as an extension of this proposal, I do think that bans until appeal need to be narrowed in their scope and acceptability with regards to what exactly qualifies as such.

    This is just a suggestion, but I do think that it will lessen the toxicity that arises during some administrative tickets, and enable players to become fruitful and productive members of our community.
    5crownik007 likes this.
  2. F-Tang Steve

    F-Tang Steve Developer Game Moderator Serpentid Species Maintainer

    I use ban until appeal when I'm not convinced someone will follow the rules. The purpose of the appeal is for them to demonstrate they're ready to follow the rules once they are. Things like being flippant or implying you won't follow a rule in an ahelp is a good way to be banned until appeal. Most tickets I handle I work with the person and make sure they know what the rules are and how to follow them. I ban rarely.
  3. EstangaJr

    EstangaJr Bartender

    I am not pointing fingers, just think that this should be an official policy. If you could move this to policy discussion, that would be excellent. TOG will do it later if you are unable.
  4. ThatOneGuy

    ThatOneGuy Retired Staff

    Moved it
  5. mkalash

    mkalash Donator

    Temporary bans are punishments. Indefinite bans are learning opportunities.
    Jovaniph likes this.
  6. BSKThemes

    BSKThemes Sol Gov Pilot

    Bans are great, r-right guys?
    5crownik007 likes this.
  7. 5crownik007

    5crownik007 Permanently Banned User

    Okay, let's think about it, but going up the thread in reverse.
    As the current punishee of a temprorary ban, i can say that is was a learning opportunity.
    Wonderful. I recieved a ding-dong bannu from not-you. Yeah I was doing some things wrong(and i maintain, some things right) but it felt very strange to be treated like "just another murderboning arse"
    Hits me right in the focking feels, you hear?

    So right now I'm sending a muddled message? Bannu? No bannu? What am I saying? Do I even know what I'm saying?
    While I certainly espouse my dislike for admin intervention, I don't think the problem is in level of enforcement, it's in the rules.
    Yeah, it'd be lovely if we could enforce "learning experiences", but guess what? Reason I got banned? Someone told me not to do that a few weeks ago.
    Certainly, such a process might work for some people, but I(can't believe I'm defending the admins jesus christ i've betrayed my cause) say leave it to admin discretion, with a bit of a "trigger-finger" warning.

    Also, for those who don't know, there's a list of individuals who are not permabanned until appeal, but permabanned full stop. Get rid of it.
  8. Meyar

    Meyar Retired Worstmin 2015-2017

    How about no? There's a reason that list exists.
  9. 5crownik007

    5crownik007 Permanently Banned User

    There are people on that list who should not be because senior admins had them put there by fiat.
  10. Meyar

    Meyar Retired Worstmin 2015-2017

    Oh? And who are those people, and what were their offenses?
  11. Crushtoe

    Crushtoe Retired Staff

    Bans Until Appeal force the user to face what they did if they want to come back rather than wait it out elsewhere.

    If we issue you a week ban, you're not going to consider what you did and confront it-you're going to go to Aurora, or Polaris, or whatever your preferred server is for a week until your ban expires, and if you still feel like Bay is worth anything, come back.

    If we issue you a Ban Until Appeal, you can't wait a week. You can't wait a year. Your ban expires when you confront it, acknowledge it, consider it, and prove you've taken enough effort that you *should* have improved on it. Until you do that, you can't show back up after a vacation.

    You literally have zero idea how the list works or what it's about. You're speculating off of knowledge you gleamed from the rage of admins.

    It isn't "never unban ever", it's a catalogue of shitlers who the admin who last banned them considered them beyond saving and listed why- you can unban them still, it's just who really shouldn't be and listed reasons for if they retire. If I wanted, I could decide to unban anyone on that list because I felt like it when they appealed. It isn't an end-all.

    There is no "senior admin fiat", any admin can put anyone they banned on it. Any admin.

    Your lack of knowledge is telling in that you speak what you know you don't know.
  12. EstangaJr

    EstangaJr Bartender

    Perhaps the reason such things are not publicly accessible and justifications are the reason the community does not understand it? I see what you're saying about the ban until appeal, but I do think that there should be less of them, because fullstop a majority of new players aren't going to have the motivation to go through the process to get unbanned if they're not sure they like the server yet. I'm just saying I feel the majority of the gameplay issues can be solved with more players, and that we can encourage more players by not making it a tedious chore to learn how to play on the server without having to write a couple essays before you can get unbanned.
  13. Meyar

    Meyar Retired Worstmin 2015-2017

    Lots of things aren't publicly accessible, including player notes. Much like we don't maintain a public list of people currently banned, for how long, and for what offense. There's no reason for such a list to be public. The only people who go on it are repeat-offense griefers, people who go beyond the pale and are not wanted back (I struggle to think of an example because we don't really do that often) and for ban evaders.

    The moral was: Don't baseless speculate and conspiracy theorize about something you know nothing about. If someone was 'permanently banned by senior admin fiat' it'd be visible to all admins, and the target of such a ban would probably file a complaint if it was unjustified.
  14. 5crownik007

    5crownik007 Permanently Banned User

    I like how everyone's assuming I know nothing about this list, so let me clarify.
    CommanderXor(someone that I personally dislike) was put on that list.
    He did made two appeals, both instantly denied by Raptor and he was thrown onto that list.
    He wasn't a griefer, he was just bad at roleplaying, bad at playing. This was early 2017.
    Late 2017, hops onto discord, banned in minutes.
    It's not baseless speculation. I willingly admit to not having all the details. I have some details.
    I have no doubt that there are people on that list who tried to crash the server via atmos grife and sent the admins a pm "suck my wee wee"
    What I do doubt is that everyone on that list is permanently beyond saving forever.
    He got banned on the forum shortly after, not due to community issues, but because he dared to make an appeal.

    I did try to talk to Raptor about CommanderXor, I sent him a forum message with no response.
    I mean, if anyone would like to PM me his shitlist reason, I'd like it.

    Back to the main topic though:
    Less bannu is better, but I'm both doubtful and hopeful that lessening punitive measures would make players better.
  15. Gabol

    Gabol Chef

    I haven't been banned in bay as far as I can recall, and I haven't been banned in Aurora either nor had I been banned in the BRP line of succession servers when I had played in them. But as far as banning policies go, I must say that applying a ban should be done after having a good old discussion with the to-be-banned before applying it. The discussion on the first ban should be on the game, not on the forum. It's a discussion for "why should I *not* ban you" rather than the forum argument, which should be, "why should I *unban* you."
    And mate, all I can add is I hope that if I ever do get the boot, I'm not subject to something as authoritarian as having the admin in charge of the first discussion be the one to close the second on his first post, because if you're making an appeal, you're challenging the judgement of that person, and unless I'm unaware of something that's part of why there's a staff hierarchy in place.
  16. masterrbc

    masterrbc That Aussie Donator

    My aim when having to ban someone is to get them to realise their mistakes - granted that this can be hard when they are being stubborn and do not wish to talk and just go to "go ahead and ban me".

    My main emphasis on banning people is that they take away something positive and see it that though they were banned, it is just a learning curve and I try to frame being banned as not a bad reflection on the player, more so representation that there is just issues that are being addressed and we do want to see you improve.

    No admin bans anyone, short of griefers, with the intent of them never improving and ensuring they never return, because that's really not the case. I'm thinking of changing the way I do my bans, because I'm not sure if they are reaching the effect I want, which is:

    When I ban someone, I set them a task to go and read x rule and to look at it from the point of view of me, the staff member.

    I'm not very heavy handed with my bans either, because I view that people shouldn't be given ban until appeals because they should be doing as asked and ensuring they've re-read the rules. I always ensure that my door is open, should they wish to discuss it further because I know I'm not perfect but I'm more than happy to help with guiding players in the right direction.
    5crownik007 likes this.
  17. Crushtoe

    Crushtoe Retired Staff

    fwiw I've yet to see this ban first, talk to them later. The only times it happens to my knowledge is when the person logs. They get about five minutes to log back in, and if they don't, the ban sticks.

    It might exist, but I've yet to see it outside of complaining.
    Meyar likes this.
  18. F-Tang Steve

    F-Tang Steve Developer Game Moderator Serpentid Species Maintainer

    Most people on the permanent ban list are ban evaders anyway. People who have used multiple accounts to try to get around being banned.
  19. TheLier

    TheLier Senior Enlisted Advisor

    Sorry, but are we really defending Commander Xor here? I was not thinking about posting here, but jesus. He is someone I would even ban from any place I would be capable to do so. There is -one- type of shit you just won't get unbanned for. Plus, it is not like his ban came out of the blue.

    Suffice to say, even if there are things to dislike, "never unban" list of people like him, is not something I'm against.
  20. Paradoxon

    Paradoxon Retired Staff

    Yeah, uh, Xor was put on that list because what he did was waaaaaay over the line. And the community ban was not because of him trying to appeal or whatever, but because, if I recall correctly, our policy at the time was to also community-ban people under a perma-perma (the logic being that, if you're never being allowed on the game ever, you have no reason to stay around the forum/Discord either).

    It wasn't some personal grief Raptor had against him. Nobody in the staff team disagreed about this decision. And I sure hope the staff's stance about him is still the same as it was. Xor is one of the rare people actually permabanned for "going beyond the pale", and a perfect example of why sometimes, perma'ing someone is the right call.
    LorenLuke and Noble Caos like this.