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[Policy gap] Cases of no confidence

Discussion in 'Policy Discussion' started by Meyar, Nov 14, 2017.

  1. Meyar

    Meyar Retired Worstmin 2015-2017

    So this has been kicking around in my head for a few days.

    How are players actually meant to address cases where they have no confidence in a staff member? There have been mulitple people over the years who were questionable members of staff on a good day who didn't meet the bar of a 'rule break' to get removed from staff.

    The feedback forum was useless, and underused. RIP it, don't miss it.
    Complaints are only for rule breaks.
    By the time it gets to the 'no confidence' point, one has presumably gone as far up the chain as they can, they've spoken to who they can.

    How are players meant to address these kind of situations when it doesn't rise to the level of a complaint, and talking is getting no where? I was staff for 2 years and I have fuck-all in answer to this question. I quite possibly fit into the category I'm describing here.
     
  2. Foolamancer

    Foolamancer Senior Enlisted Advisor

    There is no official means of recourse in this case. There never has been. The only possibility is to hope that someone on the staff team is both sympathetic and influential enough to actually get something done.

    Unfortunately, this is rarely the case. There have been, and still are, multiple staff members who would consider this lack of official channels to deal with such things to be a feature rather than a bug, and even if this weren't true, it's a rare senior administrator willing to put their foot down and actually enforce punishment - that is, removal of admin status - for staffers who don't actually conduct themselves decently.

    This has been true pretty much since this server began, and I honestly don't see it changing.
     
  3. Meyar

    Meyar Retired Worstmin 2015-2017

    Quite, but it's not a gap in policy that's good for anyone involved, staff or otherwise. Staff won't move against eachother for political reasons. Players can't move against anyone without an airtight case, and even then, it's not gonna do much but get a strike ifthey're lucky.
     
  4. Foolamancer

    Foolamancer Senior Enlisted Advisor

    Not in terms of staff efficacy, no. But it makes life easier for the staff that would otherwise be complained about in the sense that they don't have to deal with this shit, and makes life easier for the staff that would otherwise have to pass judgment and enforce punishments on one another because they don't have to get involved in the political infighting that would inevitably result.

    Basically, it's pretty shit, but it's not going to change.
     
  5. LorenLuke

    LorenLuke Commanding Officer

    It doesn't change when nobody does something about it. Here's someone who's trying to. Get on the train, I know I am.
     
  6. The Great Skeeve

    The Great Skeeve Sol Gov Pilot

    Anything involving no-confidence should be taken with extreme care. It should be heavily regulated.

    That being said, I think the following should be satisfied:

    A: There is support by both a member of staff and a community member.
    B: There is significant gathered evidence towards the person acting in such a way that they are inadequate, failing to carry out their obligations or making decisions that the community feels detrimental.
    C: All evidence, from both sides, witness testimony is available on the creation of such a motion. Such evidence must not be chopped up, without context and be available to all
    D: A period of time must be allocated to allow all members of the community to review evidence before either only staff or the community as a whole comes to a vote.
    E: The creator of the motion must be granted protection from retaliation or backlash from the accused in some way.

    It's a serious gap, and should be addressed. Obviously, Baystation 12 is not a democracy - but there are often cases where seniority takes advantages over the community and motioning something like this without regulation is social suicide.
     
    Aetsuki and Dukica like this.
  7. ТhatOneGuy

    ТhatOneGuy Unathi Species Maintainer

    Best case is come talk to me or another headmin, or even one of the seniors if your case is against the headmin. Most likely you are not alone in your feeling.
    Even if you don't think one case of a staff members bad actions isn't enough for a complaint, if they've been continuously like this you should present all relevant information. It's up to us(upper staff) to decide punishment.

    Tbqh VONCs should only really come up if you think a member of Upper Staff is not fit for their position, not all members.

    Probably said all this weird but shrug
     
  8. The Great Skeeve

    The Great Skeeve Sol Gov Pilot

    What if it is the head admin?
     
  9. F-Tang Steve

    F-Tang Steve Game Administrator Developer Serpentid Species Maintainer Deputy IPC Maintainer Deputy Diona Maintainer Wiki Maintainer

    You could go to the head Dev about it I'd think.
     
  10. The Great Skeeve

    The Great Skeeve Sol Gov Pilot

    That sounds unproductive. It'd be equivalent to a coup.
     
  11. F-Tang Steve

    F-Tang Steve Game Administrator Developer Serpentid Species Maintainer Deputy IPC Maintainer Deputy Diona Maintainer Wiki Maintainer

    Could you explain this in more depth please?
     
  12. The Great Skeeve

    The Great Skeeve Sol Gov Pilot

    What is the head-dev meant to do?
     
  13. F-Tang Steve

    F-Tang Steve Game Administrator Developer Serpentid Species Maintainer Deputy IPC Maintainer Deputy Diona Maintainer Wiki Maintainer

    I mean go into detail about how something would be a coup. The head Dev in my opinion would be an excellent person to consult about what direction you should take complaints or concerns about the head admin in.
     
  14. The Great Skeeve

    The Great Skeeve Sol Gov Pilot

    Let's say you already did that and they suggested that they think the headadmin (HYPOTHETICAL DON'T MURDER ME) was incompetent? What then?
     
  15. Meyar

    Meyar Retired Worstmin 2015-2017

    I wasn't going "A VOTE I SAY" (I'd be buried in quotes of me saying 'this isn't a democracy' afterall) but rather how a player should go about it when they feel like talking is literally going nowhere, which would include talks with you @ThatOneGuy.

    Uh, for those asking "what if headmin" that'd be a Host thing, not a headdev thing.
     
  16. mkalash

    mkalash Donator

    The head dev is separate from the game staff hierarchy. There is protocol in place for the removal of the head administrator by the game staff.
     
    Crushtoe likes this.
  17. Crushtoe

    Crushtoe Retired Staff

    For the record, if the headmin is the problem, any admin can call a vote of no confidence.
     
  18. The Great Skeeve

    The Great Skeeve Sol Gov Pilot

    I think Meyar is talking about allowing players to get somebody to initate it.
     
  19. Meyar

    Meyar Retired Worstmin 2015-2017

    I mean in this case I'm not talking about TOG at all :eek: TOG I can talk to
     
  20. ТhatOneGuy

    ТhatOneGuy Unathi Species Maintainer

    We're talking about regular ol staff not me. The thread would be worded differently if Meyar was talking about allowing anyone to initiate a VONC on me or Xales (also that's an incredibly horrible idea).

    But with players wanting to discuss a staff member they think is doing wrong but not complaint worthy, I don't think there's much policy we need there. If a player thinks talking is going nowhere then I don't think a complaint is going to help nor is vonc stuff. Upper Staff is supposed to be unbiased when it comes to staff violations and punishments and if a player thinks a staff member shouldn't be staff they should start a dialogue with one or all of upper staff. We're not gonna defend shitty staff for some weird staff vs player thing.