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Staff review - 10th of November discussion

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Virgil, Nov 10, 2019.

  1. flying_loulou

    flying_loulou Senior Enlisted Advisor

    Hence why I'm talking about it.
  2. Persona E

    Persona E Game Administrator

    This doesn't hurt anything, but unless there are specifics, it can be unlikely to go anywhere unless there are plenty of staff or no pressing issues. What is even more helpful is helping to show obviously new players the ropes IC or in LOOC, which a lot of players do and which we really appreciate.
    Datraen likes this.
  3. Phosphorus

    Phosphorus GameAwoomin Game Administrator

    Adding to what Persona said,

    Oftentimes, staff -can- be a little hesitant about helping new players too much. We'll often help a player for what they ask for or point out what they're doing wrong or walk them through the steps for things, but it's very rare for us to want to (or for them to ask for) to train a completely new player from scratch. I feel like we personally shouldn't be doing that: Bay tends to have a negative reputation for having the 'my way or the highway' attitude when it comes to players (as untrue as it may be), and us trying to do things the new player doesn't explicitly ask for in an OOC capacity definitely doesn't help that.

    We HIGHLY recommend that you help teach new players ICly. If you want, you can ahelp, and we can actually help you help them. We'll definitely answer questions related to that. Who knows, you might even make a new IC friend off of it.

    If you think something is really off (someone playing a head role and they're definitely not doing things properly), that's still ahelpable. But we'll oftentimes recommend they play lower ranking roles first, so that's just a roundabout way of getting to the earlier issue, basically.
    Persona E, Datraen and SilverSZ like this.
  4. Twoscythe

    Twoscythe Assistant

    I'm liking only some of the things that I'm reading.
    More consistent rule enforcement, including enforcement of RP standards? Good!
    More accountability for staff, including senior staff? Good!
    More consistent sentencing guidelines, with an emphasis on helping players learn the server's expectations, rather than throwing them out? Very Good!
    A potential future, broader guideline for what types of actions non-antag characters can engage in? Cautiously optimistic, but not betting on this leading to anything other than BS, like the light smashing and disarm harassment that plagues MRP servers, such as Paradise.
    Encouraging staff to proactively involve themselves in matters that nobody has asked them to? No. Bad. STAHP! The worst possible thing I could be hearing. You're just asking for more well intentioned people, making each other angry.

    Refereeing is not a competitive sport, for a reason.

    There's no reason for gung-ho, rookie admins to butt into people's rounds, when neither party involved invited them, and there's even less reason to pressure the laid-back, veteran admins to emulate this behavior. The entire argument hinges on the idea that there's a golden number of tickets that each admin needs to fill to be using their time optimally, regardless of the complexity of those tickets, and the style of the given admin.

    I understand that there are a few situations where some proactive administration is needed. If someone's rule breaking is actively harming another player who, for whatever reason, hasn't complained, or if it is, or is likely to, interfere with the progression of the antag story/ plot of the round. Outside of that, just nudge OOC reminding people that you're around if they need anything, or something.

    If I'm doing something that's actually IRL upsetting someone, I respect that there needs to be a system in place where they can seek redress. I'm an unstable sociopath, and sometimes I need a push back in line. I don't expect to enjoy that process, but I can endure it, as the cost of interacting with other human beings.

    Conversely, I'm the worst possible person at sending an ahelp, even if I really need one/should. I do NOT want to talk to you. Please try not to take it personally. I've got a deep rooted distrust of authority that was beaten into me with half a decade of daily humiliation, and a literal rock to the head. Just making this post is giving me a mild anxiety attack. If I need your help, you're going to have to bring to me. Please, don't. Just let me drown. I'm happier this way.

    Pressuring law/rule enforcement to prove their performance with ticket quotas and other volume metrics has been shown to be highly problematic in a wide variety of situations. At the most basic level, it moves the enforcer's focus away from how they can best serve and protect the community, and towards how they can use the community member before them to raise their numbers. It shifts the paradigm from Citizen and Public Servant, and towards something akin to Grifter and Mark, or Preditor and Prey. It's not a positive move.
    Higgin likes this.
  5. Virgil

    Virgil Senior Administrator Game Administrator

    Admins are expected to not entirely be reactive. It's a part of their job, one that's sadly been neglected for a fair few reasons we're aware of and hoping to fix. You're right, this can certainly lead to unwanted intervention. But if they're enforcing the rules and standards that's been set, it's necessary, as much as anyone may dislike it. It's their job to look out for players and ensure the spirit of the rules is followed.

    We don't base performance based on ticket quotas or anything of the sort. This review was done by a manual log dive at all interactions in PMs, which is how staff have to do their job when it comes to enforcement. This means human eyes read what each staff member who appeared in those PM logs was doing and how they went about it. When admins enforce the rules, it's most of the time done well (something I somewhat neglected to mention in the review but will be mentioning to the staff themselves, because I am human and things slip my mind occasionally), but these negatives we found are showing that standards aren't really being kept to. We don't really expect perfection here either. But we do want to see improvement, even if the end result isn't perfection.
  6. zaphod

    zaphod Bartender

    Controversial thought: Remove all perma bans currently in place and put them to temporary bans of a week or something.

    Banned players actually interested in play will come back and show how they behave again.
    With new rules on bans and managment in place these once Life time banned players can have a chance to come play again.
    The people who return and aren't interested in playing with us in this new era can then be re evalluated for perma bans.
  7. antonkr

    antonkr Sol Gov Pilot

    free 2beard
    but really though this would be problematic for full on griefers, which would be hard to distinguish from say someone that didnt realize the server was HRP.
  8. xales

    xales Host Game Administrator Developer Community Moderator

    For reference for this and everyone else:
    MariaDB [game]> select year(bantime), count(*) from erro_ban group by year(bantime);
    | year(bantime) | count(*) |
    |          2013 |     2435 |
    |          2014 |     1879 |
    |          2015 |     1552 |
    |          2016 |     1334 |
    |          2017 |     1538 |
    |          2018 |     2320 |
    |          2019 |     3715 |
    7 rows in set (0.01 sec)
    There are nearly 15k bans on record overall, and nearly 4k just from this year. Most are outright abuse/greytiders. Most bans until appeal are intended for the player to come on the forum and show that they want to make an effort to keep playing here. Mass-unbanning would open the door to a significant amount of abuse that would prevent anyone from enjoying the game. I don't think there are very many people who are banned, would be eligible to be unbanned, and would both want to keep playing here and have improved, but not bothered to try to appeal their ban.
  9. Virgil

    Virgil Senior Administrator Game Administrator

    As Xales has outlined, this isn't really possible. But going forward we're going to be scrutinizing new bans and making sure that, unless the offense is actually serious, temp bans are handed out first to give players a chance to improve without going to the forums immediately.
  10. Phosphorus

    Phosphorus GameAwoomin Game Administrator

    Nixing all bans in that way would only open ourselves up to brigading, in addition to what Virgil and Xales said. Many of the ban until appeals that we end up applying are for people who end up breaking a rule and immediately logging when we try to talk to them.

    In addition, many people that are actually permabanned are removed for good reason: think of people that continually abuse systems, threaten admins and players in PMs, post sexually explicit content. Most of the actual 'permabans' you see are bans until appeal, meaning that they can log onto the forums anytime and come appeal their ban. This effectively accomplishes the proposal: people who are interested in showing that they've learned the rules can first tell us that they're interested in doing so.

    If you've been permanently removed from the community, you'll know it: it isn't exactly subtle when it happens.
    Persona E likes this.
  11. Roth

    Roth Petty Officer First Class

    Great Idea!
  12. Kozak411

    Kozak411 Chef

    This may just be reactionary, or maybe I'm just angsty cause I'm sick, but I'm going to elaborate on the sort of clique-ness of the staff someone mentioned way earlier in the thread. Some staff do tend to call out some people on roleplay issues because they aren't all buddy buddy with them or other staff, leaving others with similar issues untouched.
    mikomyazaki2 likes this.
  13. evawhite

    evawhite Bartender

    Staff review I can really appreciate it. Can I complain about the staff here? I am not Alone suffering there are several players they suffer. Simple answer they always have given “busy right now, will look into in later”.
  14. Don_Piano

    Don_Piano Bartender

    @evawhite, you should make a staff complaint in the Staff Complaints branch.
    evawhite likes this.
  15. Virgil

    Virgil Senior Administrator Game Administrator

    For this sort of thing I encourage you to make a staff complaint with full details, supporting evidence, etc. An accusation of staff not dealing with issues because they're friends with people is pretty serious, but without evidence we can't do anything about it. It's not fair to punish anyone without proof of them actually doing something wrong.
  16. evawhite

    evawhite Bartender

    Thank you soo much
  17. mikomyazaki2

    mikomyazaki2 Petty Officer First Class

    As someone that plays a lot of antagonists, this is especially true for the way crew interact with antagonist roles. It is extremely easy to ruin an antagonist's round with even a small amount of metagaming, or even simply treating them like they're not a player or a real crewmember just because you know OOC that they're a 'traitor'. Being thrown in the perma-brig is basically round-ending, and leads to people doing stupid stuff like breaking the windows and attacking any security member who enters out of boredom (super-LRP behaviour imo).

    The way *most* security in my experience treat antagonists is extremely frustrating to me. And has caused me to just stop playing antagonists that *can* be arrested -- Instead going for more workplace drama themed ambitions than actually breaking laws, which severely limits me.. but what else can I do if I actually want to enjoy my rounds instead of being frustrated and throwing ahelps.

    Some examples of this, which you'll be able to find in the *many* tickets I've made while playing antagonists on this server in the past year:
    * MAAs just drag you into the brig, ignore any excuses, justifications or requests to investigate another member of the crew. Almost always these MAAs arrest you with unnecessary force.
    * Ignoring crimes committed against an antagonist. e.g. breaking into an office belonging to an antagonist player, threatening them or assaulting them infront of security -- While security just watch. This is *extremely* common. (I can provide logs for two recent rounds where this happened if you're curious.)
    * Not properly interpreting laws, brigging people for longer than necessary and for the wrong crimes. Not filing warrants. (Please Ctrl+F my ahelps for the word 'warrant'). Rule 5.2 feels completely ignored for security players.

    I often feel like my tickets are not taken seriously in terms of how damaging it is to my round -- If I grief people as an antagonist I'd expect to get role-banned -- But I see similar behavior happening from sec-members of all roles (including CoSes).

    So I guess the point I mean to make is -- I'd like mods to give some attention to security and command interacting with antagonist players, whether they do warrants, with the right charges, for the right length of time. And if not -- Then consider the antagonist player's round like you would any other player. Being a good antagonist is difficult and I'd like to feel like the rules aren't waived when it comes to dealing with my characters.
  18. Sabira

    Sabira Donator

    This is a situation that plays out almost every time I'm on the server (by the way, I resigned a while ago and still have my server permissions; since it seems like I've been forgotten, my ckey is sabira and I held the ranks of Head Developer and more recently Developer)

    Admin A does something obviously against the game rules, if they were an ordinary player they would be banned, jobbanned or whatever. Examples: killing people, blowing up a department; griefing.

    Admin B: Hey admin A you know you shouldn't do that
    Admin C: Yeah if you were a player you would have been banned
    Admin A: Aw shucks guys
    Admin B: Just don't do it again
    Admin C: Yeah just don't do it again

    Admins should be held to a much higher standard when it comes to following the rules they're there to enforce. The failure here is in Admin B and C for letting Admin A get away with it. There shouldn't be any 'home side advantage' when it comes to administrating; admins should be more willing or able to tell each other when they're breaking the rules, and further, actually act on them.