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Denied Walter Ullman

Discussion in 'Archived Player Complaints' started by Yvesza, Jul 13, 2021.

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  1. Yvesza

    Yvesza Game Moderator

    Their BYOND username: Unsure, sorry
    Their character name: Walter Ullman
    Your BYOND username: Yvesza
    Your character name: Kellie Hawker
    Date, time, and game ID of incident: 12th July, 17:00 EST (Ish, not exactly sure when) ccZ-c03l
    Who else can vouch for the situation: Lilly Whiteplume / Hubblenaut (CoS in that round)
    What happened: I setup a fake murder scene and heavily implied it was a murder committed by Carl Richards, I eventually cut to the reveal that I'm alive and allow security to arrest me. I'm comply with everything, come with them when they present a warrant.
    Que the brig, they discuss my charges openly in the hallway within ear shot when the captain runs down into the hallway and starts to push for higher charges without really applying much of a reason for them, when it becomes apparent that they're not going to be able to have anything else added onto the warrant they decide to fall back onto the only other thing they can do and demand the XO fires me.

    Later in the round they're taken to medical and put under, a mentalist grabs their ID and then returns (What I presume is their SSD'd / non-responsive self) to their office, except they put them in the XO's office instead of the CO's office. The moment they're awake they start trying to pressure security into having the mentalist arrested for espionage and continually try to have it justified with the most outlandish claims.

    My issue is that they attempted to circumvent the CoS in an attempt to have people brigged for the maximum amount of time, by adding on as many crimes as they could try to pull out or to have them instead fired if it felt like they didn't have the opportunity. Antagonists largely restrict themselves from being as harsh on the crew as they could be because there's an element of good faith and respect for the other people involved in the round which I don't believe was being extended both ways.

    Thank you for taking the time with this, I know it can be kinda a lot and I was sort of on the fence over posting it but it really stood out for all the wrong reasons to me and I couldn't contact anyone during the round.

    Evidence that shows the incident fully (logs, screenshots, recordings, etc.)[/b]:
    (Sorry, I've not got any of the logs on hand for when it all starts to decline and I only really had a small part of what I presume was a much larger conversation but it all begins 1:30-1:40 into the round after I've given myself up to security)
  2. Tennessee116

    Tennessee116 Petty Officer First Class

    Hello yes I am play Walter Ullman. I'll respond to this after staff do a preliminary addressing/tell me to or whatever.
  3. Deadmon_Wonderland

    Deadmon_Wonderland Sol Gov Pilot

    Yeah, I'll take care of this one. Tennessee if you could post your side while I grab logs that would be great, thanks.
  4. Yvesza

    Yvesza Game Moderator

    For what it's worth I'd be cool with an explanation if it clears things up so I can see what was going on with the other side, all I had to go on at the time was what I saw and without access to comms elsewhere it's very possible I had a warped view of things.
  5. Tennessee116

    Tennessee116 Petty Officer First Class

    Alrighty then. I shall explain the specific parts of this that were raised question against.
    Fog of war. The discussion was ongoing between Security and me on radio. The agent, Hank Clancy, and I think a couple of the MAAs wanted to push for higher charges because you wasted their time and framed Richards. I personally agreed, and went down to go talk to Whiteplume and Clancy. I did not suddenly go down there to attempt to force you into extended confinement. As for you being fired, it was mostly unrelated to trying to stack any charges on you, as I had already decided to fire you before the discussion even happened. For some reason everyone kept trying to apply SCUJ to you, which I prevented.
    I had just been robbed of my ID and gravely assaulted by the roboticist-butcher, and was in the infirmary licking my wounds, with my ID returned. I decided to go eat while I was being treated, and told everyone in OOC I was AFK. Supposedly, the mentalist stole my ID and dragged me to the XO's office, which in retrospect is a direct violation of rule 15. I wake up inside the XO's office with two dumbfounded crew and no ID, again. Security secures the mentalist, and I go to retrieve my wallet and review the warrant. Security then proceeded to pander over radio about the mentalist claiming it was an accident or they had good faith and I got angry ICly, because it obviously was not. The warrant they had was only for theft. To list the charges I demanded:
    • Kidnapping for dragging me to the XO's office. Kidnapping includes unwilling transportation.
    • Espionage for stealing and actively using my ID. I could lawyer about SCGL all day, but I'd consider it espionage.
    I don't remember if I demanded any more than that. I probably did. It was round-end by the time they were doing anything.
    I did not circumvent the Whiteplume with your charges. I participated in an argument in which I, along with some security personnel, pushed to get you higher charges for doing something that we considered a much greater offense than just hooliganism. Some of security was pissed, I was pissed on their behalf and myself because we had to search for your non-existent corpse and manage your non-existent crisis. Whether or not my circumvention matter, I was too busy trying to not die to care.

    Someone being charged with just theft for stealing the captain's ID and dragging him around while SSD/AFK/whatever the fuck is ridiculous.
    As for the "element of good faith" and "respect for the other people involved in the round". You make a player complaint with a warped point of view, say you have a warped point of view, and at the same time passive-aggressively imply that I don't play in good faith nor respect when it comes to antagonists. No, I play in pretty good faith of other people. I don't however cater to dumb shit when I am supposed to be acting as a reasonable, human captain. I equally act just a little angry as a human captain when people steal my important shit and drag me around the ship, and then claim it was an accident.

    I entitle antagonists to the extent of the rules and sane interaction, and I hold others to the same bare minimum if I am playing antagonist. Neither of these situations were in any way some sort of gray-area arguments where I felt anyone was entitled to anything.
    • Since there appear to be no, easy-to-access regulations on how to deal with contractors doing stupid shit, I just fire them. It was not some special objective to spite you out of some non-existent bad faith, it was because you, as a contractor employed by the ship, did some stupid shit in order to evade your job. Some lower-level security wanted to press more charges, I supported them because I agreed. I don't actually know if they went ahead with it, but as far as I know, they didn't.
    • Stealing the captain's ID, dragging him around, and then claiming it was an accident, is not just a case of usual fucking theft. I don't even know why I have to explain this. My shit got stolen twice that round, was I supposed to mope around and let the mentalist go for the five minutes left in the round so they could go participate in some more exciting antagonist opportunities of doing nothing? And, again, I didn't run out of shit to charge the mentalist with, I immediately made up my mind on firing her as well.
    I could ramble on and on about how I play antagonist and whatnot, but declaring that I am supposed to be lenient on antagonists doing dumb shit and then getting caught is pretty lame. Antagonists intentionally making themselves or being forced to hold their hand behind their back is a separate issue I find equally lame, however just because ooh you didn't actually harm anyone doesn't mean I am going to let security throw you back out to the masses after pulling dumb shit. Especially after you frame people for murder.

    EDIT 2: Civility boogaloo. Whatever still in there is still there for a reason. As for the second response, here are some extra replies I compiled.

    Your complaint literally stated that the problem was that I was circumventing the Chief of Security and how I was having bad faith against antagonists, and now it is that I am involving myself in the business of security at all? What do you want me to even explain at this point?

    The business of security I involved myself in was either directly affecting me, a byproduct of me reviewing warrants, or a disagreement between security and their boss on what charges to press.
    Part of being a captain is having to mediate between people and their departmental bosses, while I was assertive with Whiteplume, I never actively forced them to press charges. I feel like as captain, I can have some thoughts on how the people who stole my shit and dragged me around get charged with. Outside of that, captains are allowed to bring up questions or comments about warrants and charges, are they not?
    If I am chasing people and attacking them as captain, there is a reason I am doing it. I was either there when shit escalated and/or it was a skeletal situation with nobody left to respond.
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2021
  6. Yvesza

    Yvesza Game Moderator

    None of that really explains to me why the captain is involving himself in the business of security and putting pressure onto the CoS to levy higher charges in either case, but this really isn't the first time you've over involved yourself in security matters as a captain. It's an ongoing trend in which you, as the captain directly involve yourself in security matters when there are people on the ship who's sole job is to do just that.

    That's my perspective, given that I've had you chase me down repeatedly trying to shove me while I've been walking away and physically firing at you with a gun before I'd say there's some merit.

    I can give more detailed examples if there's any call for it, but I also really don't want any part of whatever is going on above me.
  7. Deadmon_Wonderland

    Deadmon_Wonderland Sol Gov Pilot

    Alright, thanks for the responses. On the topic of:
    I can't really look into this claim without specific round information, and regardless I'd rather focus on this specific round as this is the one that is the focal point of this complaint. If you have specific round information, I'd encourage a separate opening a separate issue if you feel you need to make one after this one is finalized.

    As well, Tennessee, your response is a bit hostile, and I understand you feel insulted. I'd really appreciate if you could edit it down to be a bit more civil, thanks.

    I have to head to bed, but I've already started making a timeline of the events of the round and I should get back to you on a response ASAP. Please don't make any more responses, I've already taken both of your accounts into consideration and will fish through the logs when I get home from work.
  8. Deadmon_Wonderland

    Deadmon_Wonderland Sol Gov Pilot

    Alright, so I accidently deleted this at one point so I need to retype it all again. We're starting from the top, and I'll be going over the details in order on the complaint.
    This is what I found that Ullman said in regards to this:
    Now, the Captain has the ultimate say in these ordeals regardless, they're the Captain of the ship. This isn't particularly a large amount of interference other than agreeing with the other members of security and going "it's the Lieutenant's decision" basically. He agreed but ultimately decided it was up to the COS for the charges. Now, let's talk about the charges, we'll start by looking at Sol Gov Law
    One thing I think should be pointed out as well is that only one punishment can be given, I think this is something that everyone is either forgetting or simply misunderstanding.
    So regardless, only the most severe crime would be applied. I don't see anything in the logs of him pushing the actual punishments, just the crimes. Now, there could be an argument that he just didn't mention it because the crime was never applied. That starts to get into hypotheticals however and isn't really constructive to this complaint.

    At the end of the day these are fairly low level crimes, considering the suspect in question managed to get a pair of lungs and set up a fake murder scene that ended up pulling security resources that possibly could have saved the life of the person killed by the roboticist. In the end there was a decent amount of people that were just fed up with it and I think it's mostly justified. Now, let's move on to the next point.
    I don't see this as particularly vindictive, mostly because the Captain in question has someone who is supposed to be a medical professional setting up fake murder scenes with a pair of real lungs, according to the logs. I believe in this case he is entirely justified to fire someone for something like this. Imagine if someone did this in real life in almost any work environment, I'm fairly certain most if not all jobs save for a butcher wouldn't put up with something like this and have the person in question fired immediately. Now, let's keep moving on.
    This one is a bit on the strange side, because whilst Tennessee did post that he was going to be afk:
    Let's take a look real quick at the rules for AFK players before we continue:
    Looking at the logs, Tennessee came back at 17:04:47. Whilst I think he probably should have ahelped as well in accordance with the rules, this was only about 12 minutes of AFK give or take like 30 seconds. The Captain was stripped at 16:59:18, about seven minutes after. Looking at the logs, the mentalist's player wasn't active at this time so I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they didn't see it. So, I'm going to put myself in the shoes of the Captain here. I've just gone to the medical bay after someone has stomped on my head multiple times, I wake up in the XO's office with my ID missing. This ID has access to everything on the ship, from the Emergency Armory to the Self Destruct. If I heard that someone had taken my ID, accident or not, I'd be pretty pissed off. There's actually a interesting quote here that somewhat cements Ullman in this regard.
    I think here is a man who's at his wits end, having had someone die on his ship, someone set up a fake murder scene, and finally get his head stomped on by a roboticist. Now, his ID has been stolen, intentionally or not, and he goes on the warpath. I'd say this is fine because it's a human being and human's tend to react poorly to stress and pain, which he would be under both. I think this is justified, given the circumstances. Now, let's continue to the next point.
    I don't believe this is true. I see no mentions of them saying to put Kellie Hawker into extended confinement and while I do think the situation with the mentalist may have been a little over the top, there isn't enough evidence to say for sure that he wouldn't have been able to be calmed down by the other members of command staff and since nothing actually came of it due to the round ending I'm not going to apply a ruling that it was good or bad based on something that didn't actually happen yet. I want to add that even the COS themselves did not believe it was an accident, saying:
    He was already shown that he will defer to the COS, and while he might be fired up, I think there's a reasonable chance he could have been convinced to back down on it. As for the firings, I've already discussed why I think he was justified in firing Kellie Hawker, the mentalist had not been fully fired yet but I don't believe that willfully stealing the Captain's ID, which has access to the entire ship, including a self destruct that would kill everyone aboard, has some merit as to why he would worry. Now, for the final bit:
    With the exception of the mentalist, the Captain did not use his authority to ensure that the characters involved were mistreated. The COS even said to Kellie Hawker that they were getting off easy on this situation, which I absolutely agree with. Framing someone can land you serious jail time so the fact that she got away with just getting fired is incredibly lucky. I really ask out of genuine curiosity of what would you expect out of this situation? A slap on the wrist? I guarantee in most places you wouldn't get away with putting an entire human lung out for everyone to see with the context of framing someone for murder. This is incredibly lenient on his part since I don't see him even telling them to have Hawker put on any sort of punishment save for the firing. I would say this is valid if he was the only one pushing for this but it's clear from the logs that other characters felt similarly and he agreed. Yes, his position as I said puts pressure on the COS but I think a Captain is well within their rights to weigh in on a situation, especially considering it's their ship.

    I'm gonna start this conclusion off by saying that from what I know of Tennessee, he can be incredibly charged OOC sometimes but this situation in it's context to me appears to be entirely justified. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying he's a bad person by any means, everyone gets OOC heated and I think it's always good to step back. I'll give some credit, he came back and edited his post and I really appreciated that, it's good to come back after simmering down. Now, I don't see any real malice here and I think things just got muddled with the typical clusterfuck that a traitor round is. This is not valid, I don't see anything in this specific round to tell me that the Captain/Tennessee was acting in bad faith.

    Now, other claims were made here but these claims are not the core point of this complaint. Whilst there may be some truth to these claims, I am not going to pass a judgement on a claim that I can't verify via the logs and I don't see anything in regards to a combat CO in these logs. If these rounds that occurred were bad enough that you feel you need to report them you're more than welcome to make another PC and it will be reviewed. Thank you for your patience in this reply.
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